WWA Info Exchange

Well I think I have made a couple decisions. I think I am going to go with this jointer http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-72- ... ies/G0656P and either a oneida or clearvue cyclone dc. Thanks for all the help on my other thread http://www.woodworking.org/InfoExchange ... hp?t=27625

My question is where to buy the pipe for the dc? I don't know if I am going to put all the pipe up right away, but I am going to put up parts of it and fit it together as I go. For example, I want a 6 in. port on the bottom side of my router table and a 2 in. port on the fence. So I need a y that has a 6 in. inlet and outlet and also a 2 in. outlet that I can attach my flex hose onto. I think I am going to use 6 in. pvc pipe to get as close to my machines as possible, then use flex hose to the machines. Any ideas where to purchase this? Other ideas?

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Dan

No matter where you go, There you are.

Most folks who use pvc ( me included ) use the grey Sewer & Drain pipe from the big box. The advantage is that it's relatively cheap, lightweight, and they have a wide selection of elbow's, Y's etc. and it's easy to cut to length.

One downside is that you will likely have to make your own blast gates (plywood). Easy to do and usually sturdier than the ready made plastic ones. there's a number of posts here in the past that describe how to make them.

Another is that you may have to make a adapter or 3 to hook up to your flex hose or machine ports. This is because stock S&D is sized slightly differently than regular DC piping. Not a big deal, but something to be aware of.

As for flex hose, don't go cheap. Get the good stuff that has a reasonably smooth inside to minimize airflow disruption and a fairly thick wall. Rockler, Pennstate, etc. all have good selections for this.

PS: Don't forget the Duck Tape, and some kind of hangers to loosely secure the PVC to the wall, ceiling, etc. I use the big zip ties - like the plastic handcuffs the police use.

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I bring to life, I bring to death:
The spirit does but mean the breath:
I know no more. (Tennyson, In Memoriam)

Hey Dan,

The only advice that I would offer is to avoid regular 90º elbows, and use sweeps, or longer radius elbows. Regular plumbing elbows work well for water, but will cause a jam up of particulate when used with air.

Tom

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"There is no path to peace, peace is the path."
Mohandas K. Ghandi

I used 6 inch galvinized duct for mine. works just fine, and cheap.

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Paul G
"To the last I grapple with thee, from heqq's heart I stab at thee, for hates sake I spit my last breath at thee."

Shun those studies in which the work that results dies with the worker.
-- Leonardo da Vinci

Looks like you picked the same one I did. Great machine. But! I opted for the model w/ the helical cutter head. Since this is the heart of the machine I wanted to be sure to get the "latest 'n greatest".

And that I did. Can't begin to tell you what a difference it makes. Each cutter is actuall a square that makes four cutters. Get a bur on on edge and you simply loosen the screw, turn the cutter 90* and tighten 'er down. You're good to go again. Compared to changing blades (like on my planer) this is a breeze. So, you can "fix" one cutter w/o having to change and recalibrate for four long blades.

In addition the cuts are light sanding ready. Almost as smooth as the cuts from my Forrest blade on the saw. And it looks like I can keep it that way w/o every having to let the blades wear down and then change all of 'em.

In effect, I have four cutters already installed in the machine. A set of regular blades goes for $50 so right off, I've got that in the machine but it will be a long, long time 'til I have to fuss w/ it.

I know it's a couple hundred more but money well spent.

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Joe T

I also use PVC, the white stuff. I found I had a lot more variety in connections. I also did not use any glue. I just press it together. For vertical runs I drill three holes equally spaced around the collar and insert ½” long sheet metal screws to hold it together. This way I can take it apart and re-pipe. I can’t count the number of times I have changed it.

As for the pipe size, I would reconsider the 6” and go with 4” (4” is the biggest I have). Reason for this is that it takes velocity to move material through the pipe. As the piped gets bigger the velocity gets slower. It will be the same CFM, but at a slower speed. The slower speed will let the heaver material drop and you could have clogs. I did not look to see what DC you are going with, if it says it will work for 6”, then forget what I said.

And you probably know this, but I’m going to say it anyway. Do not go from a larger diameter to a small diameter. This will clog. If the inlet to your DC is only 4”, do not make it 6”, it will clog.

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Jeff

If man made it, I can fix it.
If God made it we can pray for it.

Lessons I have learned:
NEVER MAKE ANYTHING OUT OF TEAK
Always remove the zero clearance insert before you tilt the blade DAMHIKT

I did much the same as Paul using ordinary HVAC sheet metal ductwork and fittings for my DC system. The inlet is 7" which I reduced to 6" for the two main trunks. With the exception of the bandsaw/sander drop I went to 4" from the trunk to the machine. The 4" branches are flex hose which, as Gene says, should be reasonably smooth on the inside.

The down side of using the cheap hardware store HVAC pipe and fittings is that it's horribly inefficient. You have to seal all the joints and fittings with either duct tape or some sort of duct sealer.

Good luck with your install! I just finished working through some improvements to my setup and really appreciate having less to clean up at the end of the day.

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Nullum Gratuitum Prandium

Cheers - Dennis

Jeff. Everything I have read so far, and it has been a lot, says to keep the pipe as large as possible as long as possible, unless you are running more than 1 machine at a time. This is from clear vue's web site

(What you want to do is run 6" pipe as close to the machine as possible, put a blast gate where it's easy to reach, and then reduce to 4" if necessary and run flex hose for as short a run as you can. Flex hose will reduce air flow, so you want to keep it short (3-4') if you possibly can. Because hobbyist systems are designed to run one machine at a time, there is no need to reduce pipes to 5" and then 4" etc. when designing your system. Each machine will get maximum air flow if you run 6" pipe as close to it as possible. There are several machines that need two pickups on them: Table saws, Bans saws, Radial arm saws, Router tables are on the top of my list for two pickups. Usually you want to run a 6" line to them, put a blast gate, then a 6" "Y" and then reduce to two 4" lines. Several machines like a 6" jointer or a 12" - 15" planer will work with a 4" pickup. For these machines, run the 6" as close as possible and then reduce as close as possible to the machine.)

Olepeddler--- I had the one with the helical head picked out, but something just didn't seem right with all the cutters. I kept thinking-if one of those cutters is off just a little, it will leave a line in the workpiece. After a lot of googleing, I found where there were people having this exact problem. It didn't happen until it had several of the square cutters replaced. That steered me away from it. Hope you have better luck .

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Dan

No matter where you go, There you are.

Air flow is funny stuff. I used to work around jet engines a lot. You can stand a lot closer to the intake when it's running than you can to the back end.

Which means, in the case of DC's, you have to get your suction as close as possible to the source for it to be effective at removing the dust from your vicinity. Easier said than done, depending on the machine. The pipe size is only one factor, and imho, not the most important. CMS's should have a shroud behind them for example, rather than just plugging in to that itty-bitty port on the back side of the blade. With BS's you're not going to suck much thru that little blade opening no matter what you do, so you need 2 ports, one bottom, and one above the table and/or a fan behind you to push the dust away from you, and so on. Ditto TS. Belt sanders, ROS's, routers, etc. are the worst. Shrouds, downdraft table's, properly positioned fans, etc. all help.

In my shop, I use 2 window fans. One on each end of the shop. One brings air inside and one blows it out the other end to create a draft all the way thru, so I'm effectively working inside a pipe. My DC exhausts outside, rather than using bags. The arrangement keeps the shop fairly dustfree, but forget about temp control. Tradeoff's. What works for you will likely be very different than what works for me or others.

You'll never get it all, so my advise is set up your system as best you can, and watch where the dust comes from and where it goes, and modify things as needed. Wear a good mask. Try to stay upwind of the dust source.

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I bring to life, I bring to death:
The spirit does but mean the breath:
I know no more. (Tennyson, In Memoriam)

I did put in one caveat, that being if the DC you are getting is designed for it.

I agree with all that is stated in red and if you are running more than one machine at a time, a 6” pipe is needed.

One other thing you will need to be aware of is if you are running a 6” pipe with say a 2” pipe to a band saw, there may not be enough air flow though the 2” to support moving material in the 6”. In a case like this it is best to open another small blast gate down stream.

These are all suggestions I have read up over the years.

I have a Jet 1100 and the trunk line is 4”, I only run one machine at a time and I have never had a clog (6” PVC is pricey). I selected PVC because of the selection Elbow, “T”s, “Y”s etc. It is easy to cut and reconfigure (use NO glue). Yes it cost more than metal, but when you have reconfigured as many times as I have it’s worth it.

My 2 cents worth.

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Jeff

If man made it, I can fix it.
If God made it we can pray for it.

Lessons I have learned:
NEVER MAKE ANYTHING OUT OF TEAK
Always remove the zero clearance insert before you tilt the blade DAMHIKT

Great info guys. Man my head hurts

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Dan

No matter where you go, There you are.

One more vote for steel ducting it is much less expensive than the PVC and has larger radius fairly easy to cut with a good pair of snips and a little practice.
I doubt that any retail dust collector would have enough negative pressure to distort even the cheap home center stuff.
But if a slightly heaver gauge is available at a reasonable cost use that, it is actually easer to work with.
Using a few sheet metal screws will insure that it will not come apart and still be easy to disassemble, seal the joints with aluminum tape.

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"It is not a mistake it is a learning experience"
Monte

holy cow, I just run flexible hose to all my machines... zowee but y'all get complicated

Glad to hear you decided on tools-- can't wait to see pics,
Lawrence

One thing no one has mentioned thus far is the issue of grounding PVC or any type of non metallic piping for a DC system. I find it a bit of a leap in faith but prevailing hysteria seems to hold that there is some sort of static electrical build up in plastic pipe or tubing when transporting wood dust under vacuum. It may very well be the case but it seems unlikely to me. I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

The point being is that a grounding wire is required to dissipate this potential static charge which, conceivably could create a spark and thus result in a fire. So if you're considering plastic or any kind of non-metallic ductwork, do some homework to determine what sort of grounding is required.

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Nullum Gratuitum Prandium

Cheers - Dennis

I decided on this dc http://www.oneida-air.com/v3000.php When you purchase a 3 hp or larger dc from them, they design the ductwork free of charge.

I am looking into both steel and plastic for the duct work. Haven't made up my mind yet. A lot depends on availability and price. If I do go with plastic, I will run a ground as a precaution, although from what I have read, it is not necessary.

Thanks for all the help. Pictures will be on the way once the tools start coming in

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Dan

No matter where you go, There you are.

Insulators are not grounded. PVC is an insulator. Don't suck metal through an ungrounded metal pipe and you should be fine, though the chances of obtaining the proper density and particle size for an explosion must be infinitesimal.

Unless you have a lot of volume, a larger pipe will tend to accumulate. Every poorly-closed port will steal even more of your carry power until heavier stuff won't even rise.

I plug in the machine to the DC. Only one guy in the shop, only one machine at a time.

A rather lengthy essay on the issue of static discharge:

http://home.comcast.net/~rodec/woodwork ... myths.html .

I've never gotten even a tingle from mine in 10 years, much less anything approaching a spark.

PS: Bill Pentz also has some designs for dust hoods & placement for various machines - http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclon ... oolDucting

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I bring to life, I bring to death:
The spirit does but mean the breath:
I know no more. (Tennyson, In Memoriam)

Same here.

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Jeff

If man made it, I can fix it.
If God made it we can pray for it.

Lessons I have learned:
NEVER MAKE ANYTHING OUT OF TEAK
Always remove the zero clearance insert before you tilt the blade DAMHIKT

Frankly I've never understood the rationale of requiring non metallic dust collector ducting to be grounded myself. But in King Co WA electrical inspectors have required it none the less. That's why I suggested doing the homework, checking with your local jurisdiction with respect to the grounding issue.

The bit about working with metal is worth heeding. I use my stationary disk sander for finishing pieces of steel and iron at times but never, never have the DC on when doing so.

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Nullum Gratuitum Prandium

Cheers - Dennis